INDIACEM — earnings call
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Prepared remarks
Moderator · Conference Operator
Ladies and gentlemen good day and welcome to the UltraTech Cement Limited Q4 FY '25
Questions and answers
Moderator · Conference Operator
The first question is from the line of Prateek Kumar from Jefferies.
Prateek Kumar
Congrats for great results.
My first question is on your remark in the press release.
I understand like most other sector part -- industries are saying that there is generally an improvement in on the ground macro overall.
But we have mentioned that the sector may face short-term challenges while the long term is better.
Any specific reason for this remark?
And how should we look at volume?
Atul Daga
Prateek, I'll define my short term as this quarter.
As I mentioned, the heat impact is very high.
Otherwise, things are going very good.
UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025
Prateek Kumar
What is the expectation on volume growth?
I mean, while you mentioned like 7% to 8% like long term, but for FY '26 because heat wave impact was there last year also.
Atul Daga
Prateek, we expect to grow double digit this year on a higher base.
Prateek Kumar
Double digit on like-for-like or this is including -- of course, including India Cements, you should probably grow 20%, including the 2 new entities?
Atul Daga
Yes, like-for-like double digits.
So I think I was informed about the concerns about the last line in our press release.
But short term is really short term from that perspective, it's perhaps April and the month of May, which is essentially linked to the high temperatures that are soaring in the country.
Prateek Kumar
Lastly, on prices, can you just throw some light on the current pricing versus average last quarter pricing?
Atul Daga
I think I would have asked you that question.
You know the prices on the ground better than we do.
So generally, in fact, I had mentioned that prices have seen improvements in this month as compared to last quarter or as compared to March end.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Indrajit Agarwal from CLSA.
Indrajit Agarwal
A couple of questions.
First, the 10% volume growth that you mentioned, that is organic like- for-like, right, versus 4% for the industry?
Atul Daga
No, that takes into account the Kesoram volumes also that we have rebranded as UltraTech also.
Indrajit Agarwal
Broadly, excluding that, we will still be above mid-single-digit, right?
I mean organically?
Atul Daga
Yes.
Indrajit Agarwal
And you mentioned about the profitability trajectory for India cement and that the benefits come through in 4Q '27.
So in this period in FY '26, '27, what are the levers that will take the profitability from breakeven to let's say 500 and 800...
Atul Daga
So let me again clarify or explain properly what I mentioned.
The investments which are being done in things like WHRS, alternate fuel, renewable energy, etc, renewable energy will happen earlier.
WHRS is the most long lead.
There are some cooler upgradation.
All those elements will start delivering returns after completion of work, which is the last quarter of fiscal '27.
So that is one aspect.
Second, from here onwards, where this quarter, their operating EBITDA or total EBITDA was INR40 a ton, improvement in volumes, which is capacity utilization at India Cements, improvement in margins by way of prices, by way of cost efficiency, improvement in logistics cost, overhead optimization, practically, all elements of the P&L are getting addressed for improvement.
UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025
Indrajit Agarwal
Sure.
And lastly, one more.
In terms of Kesoram, are we looking to rebrand it entirely to UltraTech or we retain that brand?
Atul Daga
Over a long period of time -- long period as in short period, long period is very confusing.
Over a period of time, yes, it will get rebranded.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Amit Murarka from Axis Capital.
Amit Murarka
So just on India Cements as well.
So Kesoram will be gradually rebranded, but India Cements will stay an independent brand?
Or will you enter into some tolling arrangements?
Atul Daga
We will -- same thing, we will enter into a tolling arrangement and gradually convert India Cements brand also into UltraTech.
India Cements, they themselves have some very powerful brands.
So it will be a mix and match.
And we will get into the rebranding exercise for India Cements also.
Amit Murarka
Sure, sure.
So any sense by when can we expect a full transition of India Cements into UltraTech brand?
Atul Daga
2 years' time, which is fiscal '27 -- by end of fiscal '27.
Amit Murarka
Sure.
And I believe by then the upgradation program also gets completed for India Cements, as you mentioned.
Atul Daga
Yes, please, because quality upgradation is very important.
So...
Amit Murarka
Okay.
And the last question will be on the blending ratios.
So there has been a consistent increase in your CC ratio now 1.45.
So what is the number that we should think of 1 year hence or maybe like ultimately, if you have any target in mind to go to 1.6 or something like that?
Atul Daga
So we have already spelled it out.
By the end of fiscal '27, we are targeting to reach 1.54.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Ritesh Shah from Investec.
Ritesh Shah
A couple of questions.
First is, sir, on the leverage.
Atul Daga
Nobody is saying good set of numbers, why is that?
Ritesh Shah
Good set of numbers, sir.
Congratulations.
Atul Daga
Thank you.
Ritesh Shah
Sir, a couple of questions.
One is, what sort of leverage will we be comfortable with on net debt to EBITDA?
Atul Daga
0.5x.
UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025
Ritesh Shah
Any time lines to reach that?
Atul Daga
Then I have to give you a forecast.
Ritesh Shah
That's what I want.
Atul Daga
I'm a little smart.
Ritesh Shah
Okay, fine.
Sir, my question...
Atul Daga
On a serious note, Ritesh, you have seen UltraTech's performance.
In the past, when we had leveraged, in fact, to 3x, we brought it down rapidly in about 2 years' time.
I think this is -- and now when we are at 1.16x on India balance sheet, volumes growing up, EBITDA improving, we will bring it down rapidly.
Ritesh Shah
Okay.
Sir, second question is on the supply at the industry level.
As per your estimates, what are we looking at 40 million tons, 50 million tons for FY '26, FY '27 as future average?
Atul Daga
Anywhere between 40 million tons to 50 million tons and our 16.8 million tons is guaranteed.
Ritesh Shah
Okay.
And sir, have you noticed anything difference in pricing and discounting trends, specifically in South?
Given demand hasn't moved much, but pricing is one way up.
How should we understand this?
Atul Daga
I don't think so any difference is there.
Ritesh Shah
Okay.
Sir, possible to indicate the current prices versus March exit or Q4 averages?
Atul Daga
No, too difficult, yes, it's 28th of the month.
But all I had said was, yes, we have generally seen an improving trend.
Ritesh Shah
Sure.
And sir, just last question.
You indicated on India Cements, we are looking at certain brownfield optionalities as well.
Can you provide some color over here?
And we understand there's a lot of lease expiry, which India faces come 2030.
So how are we looking to overcome that particular variable?
Atul Daga
So as I mentioned, there are opportunities identified.
Timing not decided.
Timing will be decided taking into account the demand opportunity that exists in the marketplace.
And just one second, Jhanwarji, go ahead.
Kailash Jhanwar
Yes, KC Jhanwar here.
So I think as Atul said rightly, because it is a little early, yes, we have identified certain areas where we can do the brownfield expansion.
And the lease of 2030 may not pose a problem because even as per the first right of refusal would be to the existing leaseholders.
So it can be a little bit price, but not anything to do with the rescope the lease.
Atul Daga
So nobody will lose their mine, Ritesh, rest assured.
UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025
Ritesh Shah
Sure.
Sir, just a follow-up.
There was expectation about basically mines being auctioned in the state of Tamil Nadu.
Has there been any progress over here?
And would UltraTech also be interested if any of the events play out?
Atul Daga
We will be interested, but there is no date yet.
As of now, I think May 4.
We are in April.
May 4 or 5 is a technical bid submission, the last date, which I remember.
No extensions have been announced as yet.
Moderator · Conference Operator
We'll take the next question from the line of Rahul Gupta from Morgan Stanley.
Rahul Gupta
Atul sir, I have one question, just a clarification on medium- to longer-term understanding of cost improvement.
So you have guided for INR300 cost improvement and towards that, we have already achieved INR86 in fiscal '25.
Now how do we see this from the lens of Kesoram and India Cements consolidation, given majority of the cost benefits will start reflecting from fiscal '27 end?
Does this mean that we will see some tail benefits on the consolidated entity fiscal '28 and beyond?
Just trying to understand how should we look going forward?
Atul Daga
Let me try and answer that question.
When we made this plan, this was on our existing UltraTech operations, did not include India Cements and Kesoram operations.
As for India Cements, we have started off this quarter with an EBITDA per ton of INR40, which will cross a 4-digit mark in fiscal '28, which is I'm giving us 3 years to deliver that.
So their efficiency improvement program, of course, there are investments which are being done.
The efficiency improvement will be carried out in parallel for India Cements set of operations.
So is the case for Kesoram set of operations.
There, I believe they are already -- they are ahead of India Cements, and they will start delivering by 1 year prior to India Cements.
So the efficiency improvement program for those entities or that capacity, 25 million tons of capacity will run in parallel without compromising on our 300-plus efficiency improvement for UltraTech as is.
I hope I am able to answer your question.
Rahul Gupta
Got it.
So just to understand this -- just one small clarification.
So we may not have apple-to- apple comparison by fiscal '27, but we would continue to see benefits and India Cements and Kesoram would really start seeing fiscal -- every year actually.
Atul Daga
Every year, every quarter.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Pulkit Patni from Goldman Sachs.
Pulkit Patni
And thanks for putting that slide where you've spoken about individually which are the cost line items and what is the contribution.
Now if I look at the numbers that you have, your guidance for FY '27 and in case of renewables FY '30, plus what you are saying for India and Kesoram in terms of EBITDA improvement, then even if the industry doesn't take any price increase, for us as a consolidated entity to go up about INR250 to INR300 EBITDA per ton from here till FY '28 should be fairly easy.
Is that understanding correct?
Or in your assumption, there is some UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025 price increase that you have baked in when you talk about India's INR500 and Kesoram slightly higher EBITDA per ton next year?
Atul Daga
Pulkit, on our Excel spreadsheet, everything kept constant, yes, INR250, INR300 is very likely.
It is happening.
But there are so many moving parts in the country.
Take the case of the royalty, which was imposed in the state of Tamil Nadu, which is INR150 a ton or something else that happens.
So those factors have to be taken into account as well or pet coke prices moving up.
So many moving parts, it's really difficult to put all of them down in the Excel model.
However, these efficiency improvement programs and if somebody were to do a math on lead distance, my team is so specific that they have calculated the advantage only on primary freight, okay?
So we are very, very specific.
If you look at the calculation on renewable energy, it is on the basis of capacity utilization.
It is on the basis of PLF that the renewable energy projects will deliver.
So we are going very, very specific, very precise instead of giving you a rounded ad hoc number.
This 300, which is actually going to be upwards of 300 on our existing capacity will happen.
Whether that amount gets translated into -- 100% of that amount gets translated into EBITDA per ton, I have -- I don't have an answer.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Sumangal Nevatia from Kotak Securities.
Sumangal Nevatia
Thanks for the Slide 24 with a lot of granular details.
Just a few clarification on this.
So this INR300, which you are saying is above this INR86 or it includes this INR86?
Just what is the base here?
Atul Daga
I can be greedy.
You don't be greedy.
So we had made an INR300 program, out of which this is INR86 delivered.
Sumangal Nevatia
Okay.
Understood.
Understood.
Got it.
Okay.
Atul, on FY '25 industry growth of 4% and our growth, is it possible to share some region-wise color, I mean, in terms of volume growth?
Atul Daga
So capacity utilization, if I look at, UltraTech operated at an average of 90% capacity utilization, which would vary, range from 85% on the lower side to 97% on the higher side.
Sumangal Nevatia
All right.
Can I just ask one last question on the CW segment, since the time we had this call last month, any new update in terms of hiring, any tie-up, anything which you would like to share?
Atul Daga
Critical positions, 1 or 2 critical people have been hired or sorry, offers have been made.
Orders have been placed for long lead item, drawings work has been completed, and we are committed to start revenues as planned by December '26.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Raashi Chopra from Citigroup.
Raashi Chopra
And just on India Cements, Atul, you said that the EBITDA per ton should likely cross about INR500...
UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025
Atul Daga
This year, Raashi.
Raashi Chopra
Yes.
So this is essentially -- I mean, is this largely to do with the whole rebranding?
I mean if you could sort of break up the slide a little bit.
Atul Daga
Difficult to break up, a lot of efficiency improvement, which is being driven by working capital, improving the working capital cycle, which means cost of purchase is coming down, production efficiency is being improved.
Raw mix -- technical team is changing the raw mix design, which is helping reduce the costs.
Prices will support overhead rationalization, which is taking place because we don't need same set of -- same kind of overhead, what else?
So fuel efficiency is coming in.
Everything is helping add to the improvement program.
Kailash Jhanwar
And just to add, I am Jhanwar here, because there are multiple moving parts, so it starts right from the cost side up to the marketing cost stage, as Atul already explained.
It's difficult to quantify.
But yes, the plan is very much in place.
Atul Daga
So Raashi, all elements are being addressed and attacked.
I mean I was so thrilled when I saw March volumes, and I mentioned it on my -- in my commentary.
March volumes, India Cements have never done 1 million tons in their history.
It speaks for itself.
Raashi Chopra
Got it.
Just to rephrase my question, is any of the INR500 going to come from pricing?
Or this whole thing is on the cost and efficiency as in rebranding price?
Atul Daga
Price improvement also to the extent Jhanwarji you tell.
Kailash Jhanwar
Yes.
Maybe the logistic cost optimization.
Because fundamentally the NCR is also driven from the logistic cost.
So the logistic cost, again, is in the 2 parts.
One is the cost optimization, then the placement of product and some synergy benefits here and there.
So it's an overall game plan to improve the working.
Atul Daga
To supplement what Jhanwarji just mentioned, it's market mix change.
So we -- as we add one more plant to the network, our efficiency keeps on improving.
There, I will not shy away from saying that prices can play a benefit, but we are not counting on that.
Raashi Chopra
Understood.
And on Kesoram, if you were to exclude the Kesoram volumes and how much -- what was your volume growth or if you could just share the Kesoram volume?
Atul Daga
6% to 7%.
Raashi Chopra
And here, I would imagine that there's not a lot of scope for the EBITDA per ton improvement.
UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025
Atul Daga
There is.
No, no, there is.
So we would touch a 4-digit mark for Kesoram set of assets in the last quarter fiscal '26.
But mind you, again, it is very difficult for us to draw a P&L by plant because it's at a zonal level.
Now just to give you further -- let me try and explain again.
We have Sedam one plant, which we acquired from Kesoram, and we have our existing capacity also in the same -- very close to the same location.
Both combined start meeting the market requirements.
So drawing up a P&L at a plant level is not practical from our perspective.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Satyadeep Jain from AMBIT Capital.
Satyadeep Jain
A couple of questions.
One on capital allocation and the other one on the acquisition.
First, on capital allocation, given you have now 2 assets that you're looking to integrate, you have the wire and cable business also.
Would you say that your plate is full and maybe any additional opportunity would not be of interest at this stage?
Would that be a fair assessment?
Atul Daga
No. I think we are always hungry for growth and a good opportunity.
Good opportunity has several parameters.
So if something exciting is there, we will not shy away.
Satyadeep Jain
Okay.
Second, on the acquisition.
So first on the profitability for India Cements, you are suggesting INR800 per ton by next year.
Atul Daga
Fiscal '27.
Satyadeep Jain
Initially, the expectation was that this would be similar to UltraTech asset.
So once the entire heat consumption, heat rate and power consumption comes down, would you expect this to be at parity with UltraTech assets or there are structural issues which might limit...
Atul Daga
It will be at par with our South assets.
Because when we look at UltraTech EBITDA per ton of INR1,270, North markets would be doing significantly higher.
So you cannot compare it with our average.
Satyadeep Jain
So typically, your southern assets would be at the lower end of that entire pie of EBITDA per ton that you...
Atul Daga
As of now...
Kailash Jhanwar
As of now, but maybe a year back or 2 years back, Southern was doing extremely well.
So on the cost side, if I may add, actually, we would be well aligned with UltraTech, but the cost cannot be average of UltraTech because the zone to zone, even within UltraTech cost differs depending on the quality of limestone and so much -- so many technical parameters, hardness of the limestone and so on.
So -- but yes, broadly, we would be in line with UltraTech.
Atul Daga
Tamil Nadu at one point in time was delivering more than INR2,000 of EBITDA per ton.
So it will be in line with our South performance.
Satyadeep Jain
Just a follow-up to that EBITDA per ton that you mentioned in Tamil Nadu...
UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025
Moderator · Conference Operator
May I request you to please re-join the queue for follow-up.
There is a long queue that is awaiting to ask questions.
Thank you.
We'll take the next question from the line of Navin Sahadeo from ICICI Securities.
Navin Sahadeo
Sir, two quick questions.
Sorry, I missed this.
Kesoram volumes in Q4 was how much?
Atul Daga
Ankit, how much volume?
1.53 million tons.
Navin Sahadeo
1.53 million tons.
And just my second question sir was since we took charge of this asset from 1st of March, so brand transition will happen over time in the sense or there is a fair amount of brand transition already happened?
I'm only asking to understand from a perspective that South as a region has seen, I think, a decent price improvement in April.
So will it be fair to assume that Kesoram gets a higher delta of brand conversion and the price hike?
Atul Daga
Difficult one.
But yes, as brand conversion progresses, they will get an advantage.
Navin Sahadeo
And just one last clarification.
When you give capex guidance of around INR9,000 crores to INR10,000 crores for FY '26, it includes the one for cables and wires business, right?
Atul Daga
Yes, they won't have too much of spending.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Sanjeev Kumar Singh from Motilal Oswal Financial Services.
Sanjeev Kumar Singh
I have 2 questions.
First, on the Building Products segment.
So revenue is at INR921 crores, impressive growth of 21%.
How are we looking at this segment in next 3 to 4 years?
And can you guide us on the return ratios, ROCE which we make in this segment?
Because we believe that it's largely related to construction chemicals.
Atul Daga
So easier questions first and nicer questions first.
The ROCEs are upwards of 30% to 40%.
Growth trajectory, we have achieved, let's say, INR1,000 crores of revenues.
This should go up to INR3,000 crores to INR4,000 crores in -- INR3,000 crores not INR4,000 crores, sorry, INR3,000 crores in 3-year time window.
So every year, we should see an expansion of INR1,000 crores of revenues.
Sanjeev Kumar Singh
Okay.
And second question is regarding the South region prices.
It has been discussed a lot on this call also.
And historically also, we have seen that the price hike announcement is much higher in the South region.
And that also follows the pricing in the East region.
But over the next 2, 3 months, historically, we have seen that entire price hike, which has been taken over and that gets diluted.
So are you seeing any change in the competitive intensity or any change in the player behavior in the South region, which gives us...
UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025
Atul Daga
I really don't know.
I think it's a wait-and-watch game.
You guys know about prices far higher than we do.
We come to know only after we draw up our monthly accounts.
And prices, to my mind, will remain a play of demand and supply.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Rajesh Ravi from HDFC Securities.
Rajesh Ravi
Congratulations on strong numbers for sure on the margins front.
On the demand front, could you share what was the industry growth in Q4?
Atul Daga
Our expectation is that it should be around 4%.
Rajesh Ravi
Okay.
So it did not like inch up to 8%, 9% as was anticipated at the start of the quarter?
Atul Daga
No.
Rajesh Ravi
Okay.
Because your like-to-like volume growth also seems to be around 5% for the quarter, excluding Kesoram and India Cements?
Atul Daga
6% or thereabouts, yes.
Rajesh Ravi
And for the full year, how much is the Kesoram volumes which you are incorporating in the numbers?
Atul Daga
Full year Kesoram volume is 6.86 million tons or 6.87 million tons.
Rajesh Ravi
6.87 million tons.
Okay.
And sir, if I compare the presentation with previous presentation, the corporate presentation, I see the WHRS expansion program has been curtailed because in the current program, which you have shared, I would assume you would be incorporating 50 million tons for India as well as Kesoram, including 9 so -- around 60 million tons, so 60 megawatt.
But if I look at the numbers in the presentation that is absolute number for FY '27 is lower versus what you had guided earlier.
So ideally, it should have gone up by 50 megawatt, 60 megawatt, but the reported numbers are 10 megawatt, 15 megawatt lower for FY '27 target.
Ankit Sodani
It will come in FY '28, till FY '27 number which is...
Atul Daga
Till FY '27, the number.
So, we are adding -- I have given you specifically the numbers on Kesoram assets, 24 megawatts.
And ICL is about 22 megawatts.
That's about -- 22 and 24, 46 megawatts of additional which will get added into our network.
Rajesh Ravi
Correct.
So now FY '26 -- for FY '27, say, you have guided 500 megawatts, which will include this 46 megawatts plus 9 megawatts of India Cements so around 56 megawatts.
So this 500 megawatts would otherwise -- the earlier presentation was 511 megawatts, which would obviously not be factoring in India and Kesoram's number.
Atul Daga
Correct.
UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025
Rajesh Ravi
So your organic expansion, are there any -- you have curtailed on any WHRS programs on the like-to-like assets?
Atul Daga
No. No. So once second, just go back to the Excel, that sheet you have.
This does not include these assets, the Kesoram.
I'll have to do a reco on that.
No curtailment on our WHRS, 44 megawatts will get added further, but to the larger capacities.
Rajesh Ravi
Okay.
And lastly, as you guided India Cements, for Kesoram, what was the total EBITDA for the year as a whole, which you are factoring in?
Atul Daga
For the year as a whole?
Rajesh Ravi
FY '25.
Atul Daga
INR112 per ton.
Rajesh Ravi
INR112 per ton, okay.
Atul Daga
I think somewhere around INR112 or INR115 per ton.
Previous periods, I really don't have a handle.
I'm just doing a console...
Rajesh Ravi
Lastly, if I just -- the volume growth for FY '26, have you given any guidance, if I missed out?
Factoring in the 2 new assets in place?
Atul Daga
We will be growing double digit on our organic capacity.
Rajesh Ravi
So excluding Kesoram and India Cements, you're saying you'll be growing double digits.
Atul Daga
Yes.
So that will be an added.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Pathanjali Srinivasan from Sundaram Mutual Fund.
Pathanjali Srinivasan
Good set of numbers.
I wanted to know some details on the region-wise profitability and volume growth.
Atul Daga
Very difficult.
As I mentioned earlier, the average capacity utilization for us is about -- for our like-for-like is 90%, lowest being 85% and highest being about 97% capacity utilization.
That's the best that I can give.
Average...
Pathanjali Srinivasan
Industry level, would it be possible for you to share?
Atul Daga
Average EBITDA per ton of INR1,270 on our existing assets.
North would be higher -- highest and others would fall in line because it's best to measure contribution instead of doing an EBITDA profiling at a regional level.
Pathanjali Srinivasan
Sure.
And one question related to our acquisition.
So the remaining stake that is, what is the plan there for us?
And what would be our payback period for these assets, sir?
UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025
Atul Daga
Payback period for cement acquisitions would go to 7, 8 years.
We are holding 81.49% 81.49% of India Cements.
The first requirement will be to do an MPS to bring it down to 75%.
Pathanjali Srinivasan
Okay.
So we -- would that mean that we would not be acquiring the remaining?
Is that the right understanding or...
Atul Daga
Yes, yes, not required.
With 75%, we have good control on the performance of the company.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Indrajit Agarwal from CLSA.
Indrajit Agarwal
I just want to understand your Northeast strategy.
Any change in thought process over there?
We have a stake in Star.
So how do we wish to progress more organically or increase stake there?
Atul Daga
So we've been exploring the geography there.
We created our entity to comply with all the regulations.
There's something called single-window clearance that approval we have taken.
But when we go down in that geography, there's a lot of issues that are surfacing.
It's not an easy terrain to operate because even if you find mines and plant land, the access roads are not really there and the economics of operating the plant go for a toss depending because of the various issues that are existing.
And hence, we -- since that opportunity came about, we are investing and holding that -- our position in Star Cement.
That's all.
We will continue to work on the Northeast market for a good clean mines and land parcel become available with access to the various things that are required for a cement asset, access to railway siding, close proximity to railway siding, access to the highway, if such an opportunity comes up, we will be the first ones to pounce on that.
Indrajit Agarwal
Sure, thank you so much.
Atul Daga
Just one second.
Kailash Jhanwar
One second, but as far as our presence is concerned, we are present in Northeast.
We are supplying from our existing plants, and we are ramping our volumes in Northeast.
So that would be -- continue to be there.
So we have reasonably good presence, not to the level of the local players.
But yes, we are moving forward as far as our presence is concerned.
Moderator · Conference Operator
Ladies and gentlemen, we'll move on to the next question, which is from the line of Devesh Agarwal from IIFL Capital.
Atul Daga
Take the next question.
He's dropped out.
Moderator · Conference Operator
As the current participant is not answering, we'll move on to the next question, which is from the line of Raashi Chopra from Citigroup.
Raashi Chopra
Just a bookkeeping question.
The realization increase sequentially was 1.6%, including India Cements and Kesoram.
Do you have that with both of them, sequential move?
UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025
Atul Daga
This was only UltraTech, I mean, like-for-like.
Raashi Chopra
Yes.
So if you -- do you have it with India Cements and Kesoram?
Atul Daga
No, we haven't computed that way.
India Cements is a separate balance sheet and P&L.
It will be an arithmetic exercise, Raashi, I don't have it.
Raashi Chopra
Okay.
And I don't know if I missed this, but you gave INR112 as the EBITDA per ton for Kesoram for the year.
And what was it for this quarter?
Atul Daga
INR400 -- INR399.
Raashi Chopra
And 1.53 was the volume.
Atul Daga
Yes.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Shravan Shah from Dolat Capital.
Shravan Shah
Most of the questions have been answered.
A couple of things.
Just to understand, sir, if I remove the India Cements and the Kesoram volume for this quarter, the number on like-for-like comes -- the growth is 5% and for year also 6%.
But do we think that this is -- are we satisfied with this number or given even the organic expansion that we have done, obviously, it is throughout the 4 quarters, though the capacity is not available for full year, but still don't you think that this number is on the lower side?
Atul Daga
What should I say?
I mean, we want more -- obviously, "Dil Mange More wali baat hai".
We will definitely want to increase our volumes and growth.
As I mentioned, next year, we are targeting a double-digit growth for UltraTech stand-alone, which will get further bolstered with the capacity -- the sales volumes of Kesoram assets.
India Cements assets will be visible separately in their own P&L.
Shravan Shah
Got it.
Second, sir, what was the clinker utilization for the fourth quarter and if possible, for full year at consol level or whatever way you want to say?
Atul Daga
I think I focus more on cement utilization.
Clinker utilization is obviously higher than cement utilization.
So we achieved 90% cement utilization this quarter, 79% cement utilization for full year on UltraTech.
Shravan Shah
Okay.
Got it.
And second, sir, the INR300 cost reduction that we have spoken, so this is by FY '27 or FY '28, we are saying?
Atul Daga
'27.
Shravan Shah
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
And for FY '27, what would be the capex number, sir?
UltraTech Cement Limited April 28, 2025
Atul Daga
'27.
We'll talk about it next year.
But it should come down because most of our -- the expansion plan will start coming to a close.
So it will not be as high.
Moderator · Conference Operator
The next question is from the line of Ritesh Shah from Investec.
Ritesh Shah
Quick 2 questions, sir.
Any update on the JP asset under arbitration?
Any time lines?
Atul Daga
No, it's still -- award is still awaited.
Ritesh Shah
And sir, any time lines?
Atul Daga
I'll ask a judge and come back to you, Ritesh.
Ritesh Shah
Okay.
Sir, second question, you -- basically, pet coke prices haven't come down as probably was anticipated.
You did indicate in the initial remarks around indirect impact of ocean freight.
Can you provide some more color over here?
Is it specific with respect to the dry bulk cargoes we are looking at?
Or are there any other variables which are coming to play?
Atul Daga
No. So see, ocean freight is spiking up, could spike up further.
That is one.
I have noticed Brent prices have been going down.
U.S. output is going up.
U.S. crude output is going up, which means availability of pet coke from U.S. refineries should be better.
I don't know how China- U.S. trade will behave, how much pet coke will China consume.
This will -- this is too difficult to quantify, Ritesh.
Ritesh Shah
Sir, just possible to break up the freight part out of, say, $120, $122 what you have indicated in the presentation?
Atul Daga
$37 to $40 is freight.
Moderator · Conference Operator
Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take that as the last question for today.
Thank you, members of the management.
On behalf of UltraTech Cement, that concludes this conference.
We thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.
Thank you.